Any questions, comments, suggestions regarding the mod development.
User avatar
User

Kalis

Rank

Developer

Posts

1030

Joined

01 Aug 2012, 18:11

Location

The Pantry (I upgraded again)

Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by Kalis » 22 Nov 2014, 20:24

So something I've avoided up until now is talking about how certain ships behave and how certain things are set up. The reason why is because I didn't feel like getting into a fight/argument with the New Republic members and the developers.

That being said I think we need a place to talk about how things are currently set up and what we don't like about it. Before we do so such a sensitive topic needs rules to prevent too much blood from getting everywhere.

First off no ship requests, this isn't the place for it, this is the place to talk about things that are already in game and we feel aren't quite right. This is not just for ships as well, any changes to gameplay that would mean balancing or affecting balance can go here as well.

Second please remember that factions are balanced asymmetrically. Just because the TIE Fighter and Z95 fill the same role does not mean they need the exact same stats. Likewise some ships may be the same class but might not fill the same role.

Third, you must try to be as unbiased as possible. It is hard, I know. I also know this statement will eventually bite me in the ass but it is there to remind me just as much as it is to remind everyone else. Think about why a ship might be the way it is and consider that, think about how the other side might feel, if you are incapable of doing that then don't comment.

Fourth, developers are not beholden to your wishes. I know, I've been there and done that. I know they are paying attention to us however so we might as well voice our opinions on matters such as these, that directly affect our gaming enjoyment. Just don't get too upset if you are told no.

So here is how it is going to be. I'm going to kick things off by talking about a few Imperial ships and not mentioning NR ones as much as the desire to do so burns within me. When you respond to a topic I will edit it with your viewpoint or directly quote you here in the original post. This way if conversations become lengthy anyone can just read this first post and keep up.

Feel free to bring up what you want, if you agree (or disagree) with something but don't have anything to add say so. I will also keep a running tally (tracking faction member's votes though so Imperials can't simply outweigh NR through numbers or vice versa) of who agrees/disagrees to keep track of popular opinion. Don't expect a change to happen if nobody on the other faction agrees (although it should be taken into consideration that nobody from the other faction would be aware of certain issues regarding flying a ship).

Let's keep this calm, civil, and try not to let too many dents affect the pleasing aesthetics of the wall next to my computer.




Victory Star Destroyer Needs An Energy Drink
So one of the concerns among many Imperials is that the VSD is not pulling ts weight. Don't get me wrong, its missile volley of death is very scary and impressive. But that is all it has too it. Its guns don't do enough damage to scratch a CR90's shields with an alpha strike, which is sad. It also can't move without consuming energy, which is kind of important with it being a spaceship and all.

Suggestion: Fix the VSD's guns so they do somewhere between a Strike and a MC80 in terms of damage, and change its power core so that cruise consumes energy but simply moving forwards does not. I heard that there is a de-buffing in the works that involves either lowering the damage of its missiles or reducing their rate of fire. I think this is fine as long the VSD is at least capable of doing damage without using missiles.
Agree: 1 (1 GE)
Disagree: 0

Counter Suggestions:




Escort Carrier Stole VSD's Energy Drink
On the opposite end of the spectrum is the Escort Carrier. Until recently I was under the impression that the Escort could defend itself against small groups of fighters but a lone capital would ruin its day. It has does well against lone and sometimes pairs of bombers, especially those cocky enough to come around for another pass after their shields have dropped. A (partially damaged) Nebulon B picked a fight with my (half shielded) carrier earlier and brought my fantasy to an end. It was replaced with an awesomer fantasy. The escort carrier engaged the Neb B in a running gun duel and they did equivalent amounts of damage to each other, I personally think the carrier would have won because the Neb B was missing a decent chunk of its health but that's beside the point. The Escort Carrier shouldn't have been able to do that much damage to the Neb B.

Suggestion: I would suggest lowering the damage of the Carrier's guns but increasing their rate of fire a little to compensate against fighters. I would be open to just lowering the damage though since the carrier shouldn't be operating without a fighter attachment anyways. Also maybe removing the single assault concussion launcher it is equipped with (I found it after the fight so it wasn't used btw).
Agree: 1 (1 NR)
Disagree: 0

Counter Suggestions: The Nebulon B has been reported to lack a sufficient amount of firepower for its role. Perhaps strengthening its guns would be better than nerfing the Escort Carrier's. Or simply increasing its anti-fighter capability so it fills more of a escort role than a combat capital.
Agree: 2 (1 GE, 1 NR)
Disagree: 0




TIE Defender Incompetent, Fired
I thought I should put at least one somewhat tricksy one in here. So the TIE/D... The Defender has some handling issues to put it generously, we can't find a use for the thing. We've had mixed success in fights but that is with either a wingman flying an interceptor or missile support. The Defender is incapable of outrunning even K-Wings so enemies who are losing just run off or fly past and ignore it (bombers hitting our capital ships). It can't maneuver well enough to dodge a proton torpedo fired at it, and two proton torpedoes hitting nearly kill the TIE/D so it only takes a stray laser to end it. It's guns do have a good chunk of damage when they hit but because of previously mentioned issues it can't line up a shot in a fight and when charging head on the proton torpedoes mean it can't line up a shot without dying either.

Suggestion: Lowering the mass of the TIE/D could go along way, and giving it a bit more juice in the engine department and/or more efficient countermeasures. Another thing to consider is that the NR's E-Wing is possibly the same way. I wouldn't know because I never flew it.
Agree: 1 (1 GE)
Disagree: 0

Counter Suggestions:




Blockade Runner Can't Run Blockades, New Name Needed
One thing that I know Sizer is very aware of (because I made sure of that :P ) is how much I hate the way the current CR90 flies. I think it's maneuvering is fine and its guns are great for their job, but it is so slooooow. I intended to avoid talking about this until there was another CR90 pilot, preferably NR, to contribute and now there is. Simply put, 240 in cruise is too slow for the ship that is famous for outrunning everything else. Do I think it needs to go as fast as a YT? Lol no. But it should be able to outrun a Nebulon B, those huge bulk freighters, and my Escort Carrier. Right now it does none of those things. Its power core is also finicky, one dent in the shields and it costs energy to move forward without cruise. That kind of sucks when you are flying through a pirate infested gravity well.

Suggestion: Bump the CR90's cruise speed to around 300ish while at the same time giving its power core a bump so it can move forward (not cruise though) indefinitely. Its cruise should last for a decent period of time but I am fine with it not being able to cruise for long after taking a hit to the shields or firing its guns. To balance this I would suggest cutting its cargo capacity by a quarter or half since it is not a dedicated freighter, although we do tend to use it as one...
Agree: 2 (1 GE, 1 NR)
Disagree: 0

Counter Suggestions:




Bombers Take Nap, Nobody Notices
Fighters are meant to protect capital ships, and capital ships are meant to be terrified of bombers (and each other, to a certain extent).

This is not so in this game. At all. We all know what happens with the nauseating pre-battle cap-ship dance, with cocky CR-90 traders (or the need to bring a fleet to take down a freighter), and with the boredom and futility of flying anything smaller than a frigate or assault ship in a cap fight.

I don't know how to fix it, but it's such an issue to me (as a player who only wants to fly snubs/bombers and to do so within some kind of RP context) that if a cap is online--whether on my side or the other--all I want to do is log off. I don't want to game the system and switch to a cap, a CR-90 or an ATR, and I don't want to dock right beside the battle and make 17 runs on the same target with weak ordinance, with nobody present even caring about what I'm doing.

Paper doesn't beat rock: rock doesn't even show up, so paper just falls asleep at the staging area.

Suggestion:
Much higher damage for ALL fighter blasters/lasers/ions (+50%) and bombs/rockets (+100-500%) (leave missiles/torps the same, they're one of the few weapons that actually feel "right"). Make bombers the premier hvy ordinance carriers, not shuttles. Counter increased damage by drastically increasing mass of bombs/rockets to make the bombers highly vulnerable to fighters, missiles, and anti-fighter caps during their runs. Somehow nerf any other ship that can carry bombs to the extent that patrol boats or smaller are the obvious choice for anti-cap missions due to their speed and size. Keep rockets on current hvy fighters to allow them an anti-freighter/shuttle capability without resorting to bombers.

It doesn't matter how its done, the end result is the key-- If an MC-80 gets stuck without a fighter escort, a group of 3 bombers should seriously hurt it with one or two runs of proton bombs. Caps that don't fear bombers add NOTHING to gameplay. At the same time, 3 bombers/assault shuttles/Patrol boats left without fighter cover should die VERY quickly to even a light fighter or two. This seems extreme because it's the very REASON for the existence of fighters.

And don't buff ANY cap, nerf caps until they balance downwards.

Agree: 1 (1 GE)
Disagree: 0

Counter Suggestion:
Last edited by Kalis on 06 Dec 2014, 07:34, edited 7 times in total.
Lieutenant Commander Kalis; HIMS Annihilator (retired)
Flight Lieutenant Drakis; Reaper Squadron
Moff Griff; Tapani Sector
Image

Image
User avatar
User

Kalis

Rank

Developer

Posts

1030

Joined

01 Aug 2012, 18:11

Location

The Pantry (I upgraded again)

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by Kalis » 22 Nov 2014, 20:43

Also, maybe some of you will disagree but unless we abosultely need to let's keep exact stats out of this. Stats are finicky and subject to a bunch of stats. Just say what you think needs said.

For example: TIE Fighter should outmaneuver Z95 because lack of missiles
NOT TIE Fighter has only 200 maneuverability while the Z95 has 210. That is not fair!
Lieutenant Commander Kalis; HIMS Annihilator (retired)
Flight Lieutenant Drakis; Reaper Squadron
Moff Griff; Tapani Sector
Image

Image
User avatar
User

Caius

Rank

New Republic Command

Posts

66

Joined

24 Jun 2014, 02:34

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by Caius » 24 Nov 2014, 23:44

Kalis wrote:Escort Carrier Stole VSD's Energy Drink
On the opposite end of the spectrum is the Escort Carrier. Until recently I was under the impression that the Escort could defend itself against small groups of fighters but a lone capital would ruin its day. It has does well against lone and sometimes pairs of bombers, especially those cocky enough to come around for another pass after their shields have dropped. A (partially damaged) Nebulon B picked a fight with my (half shielded) carrier earlier and brought my fantasy to an end. It was replaced with an awesomer fantasy. The escort carrier engaged the Neb B in a running gun duel and they did equivalent amounts of damage to each other, I personally think the carrier would have won because the Neb B was missing a decent chunk of its health but that's beside the point. The Escort Carrier shouldn't have been able to do that much damage to the Neb B.

Suggestion: I would suggest lowering the damage of the Carrier's guns but increasing their rate of fire a little to compensate against fighters. I would be open to just lowering the damage though since the carrier shouldn't be operating without a fighter attachment anyways. Also maybe removing the single assault concussion launcher it is equipped with (I found it after the fight so it wasn't used btw).

I've not yet flown the Nebulon-B but I can confirm its flaws in firepower. It doesn't surprise me that your Escort Carrier was able to keep up. We've recently done some cap testing with our Neb-B and MC-30 (Heavy Frigate - Light Destroyer). Its outcome wasn't surprising but I wouldn't have thought that the Neb-B is such an easy prey for the destroyer. The Neb's guns simply are too weak to damage the MC-30's shields significantly.

Lowering the carrier's damage output works for me but I would prefer to strengthen the Nebulon a little bit, either shields or firerate/damage of lasercannons/turbolasers. It was designed to defend convoys against starfighters and used to escort big caps. Of course, it shouldn't be able to compete with battle caps but it should hold out a little bit longer, I think. Either this or increasing its anti-starfighter abilities, so it can fulfil its role as escort frigate. Nevertheless, knowing that the Carrier is able to rout a Neb is a little bit depressing.

Agree: +1 NR
Counter Suggestions: or strengthen the Neb-B instead
Air Marshal Kyle Arkano
User avatar
User

Kalis

Rank

Developer

Posts

1030

Joined

01 Aug 2012, 18:11

Location

The Pantry (I upgraded again)

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by Kalis » 24 Nov 2014, 23:51

I wonder if the Neb B has the same guns as the VSD. That would explain the lack of damage.

I think strengthening the Neb B is the better option if it is under powered in the first place.
Lieutenant Commander Kalis; HIMS Annihilator (retired)
Flight Lieutenant Drakis; Reaper Squadron
Moff Griff; Tapani Sector
Image

Image
User avatar
User

Caius

Rank

New Republic Command

Posts

66

Joined

24 Jun 2014, 02:34

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by Caius » 06 Dec 2014, 03:23

True, I'd like to commit myself on strengthening the Neb B aswell.

Kalis wrote:Blockade Runner Can't Run Blockades, New Name Needed
One thing that I know Sizer is very aware of (because I made sure of that :P ) is how much I hate the way the current CR90 flies. I think it's maneuvering is fine and its guns are great for their job, but it is so slooooow. I intended to avoid talking about this until there was another CR90 pilot, preferably NR, to contribute and now there is. Simply put, 240 in cruise is too slow for the ship that is famous for outrunning everything else. Do I think it needs to go as fast as a YT? Lol no. But it should be able to outrun a Nebulon B, those huge bulk freighters, and my Escort Carrier. Right now it does none of those things. Its power core is also finicky, one dent in the shields and it costs energy to move forward without cruise. That kind of sucks when you are flying through a pirate infested gravity well.

Suggestion: Bump the CR90's cruise speed to around 300ish while at the same time giving its power core a bump so it can move forward (not cruise though) indefinitely. Its cruise should last for a decent period of time but I am fine with it not being able to cruise for long after taking a hit to the shields or firing its guns. To balance this I would suggest cutting its cargo capacity by a quarter or half since it is not a dedicated freighter, although we do tend to use it as one...
Agree: 1 (1 GE)
Disagree: 0

Counter Suggestions:

I have to endorse that the CR90 is way too slow in comparison to similar ships. For example, the YB-300 Freighter (420 in cruise) outruns the Corvette easily while having a comparable energy drain in cruise speed and exactly the same cargo hold. I'm a little bit sceptical about cutting the CR90's cargo hold but I might be biased because I currently am using it as a freighter. :)

Nevertheless I completely agree with your suggestions (strengthening the power core in particular). Considering the growing CR90 player base, I'm sure that all captains would appreciate these changes. They definitely would do justice to this beautiful craft.

Agree: +1 NR
Last edited by Caius on 06 Dec 2014, 05:54, edited 1 time in total.
Air Marshal Kyle Arkano
User avatar
User

berowe

Rank

Galactic Empire

Posts

200

Joined

07 Apr 2012, 06:50

Location

Improcco

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by berowe » 06 Dec 2014, 05:30

Here's some balance talk for you:
Fighters are meant to protect capital ships, and capital ships are meant to be terrified of bombers (and each other, to a certain extent).

This is not so in this game. At all. We all know what happens with the nauseating pre-battle cap-ship dance, with cocky CR-90 traders (or the need to bring a fleet to take down a freighter), and with the boredom and futility of flying anything smaller than a frigate or assault ship in a cap fight.

I don't know how to fix it, but it's such an issue to me (as a player who only wants to fly snubs/bombers and to do so within some kind of RP context) that if a cap is online--whether on my side or the other--all I want to do is log off. I don't want to game the system and switch to a cap, a CR-90 or an ATR, and I don't want to dock right beside the battle and make 17 runs on the same target with weak ordinance, with nobody present even caring about what I'm doing.

Paper doesn't beat rock: rock doesn't even show up, so paper just falls asleep at the staging area.
"You're going to have to run faster than that, reb..."
- Reaper comms -

Formerly/Currently:
Avenger-4, Dian Set, Reaper-02, Reaper-04, Reaper-05, Yol-01, The Randy Gamorrean, The Snooty Sullustian, Ithorian Sunset, INV Kalix's Bane, et alia.
User avatar
User

Kalis

Rank

Developer

Posts

1030

Joined

01 Aug 2012, 18:11

Location

The Pantry (I upgraded again)

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by Kalis » 06 Dec 2014, 06:01

I've added your balance issue Berowe, but for the sake of moving this along how would you personally fix this issue given the chance?
Lieutenant Commander Kalis; HIMS Annihilator (retired)
Flight Lieutenant Drakis; Reaper Squadron
Moff Griff; Tapani Sector
Image

Image
User avatar
User

berowe

Rank

Galactic Empire

Posts

200

Joined

07 Apr 2012, 06:50

Location

Improcco

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by berowe » 06 Dec 2014, 06:33

Meh, pie in the sky.

Much higher damage for ALL fighter blasters/lasers/ions (+50%) and bombs/rockets (+100-500%) (leave missiles/torps the same, they're one of the few weapons that actually feel "right"). Make bombers the premier hvy ordinance carriers, not shuttles. Counter increased damage by drastically increasing mass of bombs/rockets to make the bombers highly vulnerable to fighters, missiles, and anti-fighter caps during their runs. Somehow nerf any other ship that can carry bombs to the extent that patrol boats or smaller are the obvious choice for anti-cap missions due to their speed and size. Keep rockets on current hvy fighters to allow them an anti-freighter/shuttle capability without resorting to bombers.

It doesn't matter how its done, the end result is the key-- If an MC-80 gets stuck without a fighter escort, a group of 3 bombers should seriously hurt it with one or two runs of proton bombs. Caps that don't fear bombers add NOTHING to gameplay. At the same time, 3 bombers/assault shuttles/Patrol boats left without fighter cover should die VERY quickly to even a light fighter or two. This seems extreme because it's the very REASON for the existence of fighters.

And don't buff ANY cap, nerf caps until they balance downwards.
"You're going to have to run faster than that, reb..."
- Reaper comms -

Formerly/Currently:
Avenger-4, Dian Set, Reaper-02, Reaper-04, Reaper-05, Yol-01, The Randy Gamorrean, The Snooty Sullustian, Ithorian Sunset, INV Kalix's Bane, et alia.
User avatar
User

FriendlyFire

Rank

Developer

Posts

1671

Joined

15 Feb 2010, 16:14

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by FriendlyFire » 06 Dec 2014, 16:05

Yeah, no. There is no point in the insane cost of a capital ship if a few scrub bombers can nuke it to the ground.

You need to take into account capitals' current limitations: cost, permadeath, speed. We will never make bombers so powerful, sorry. Also, shuttles are the big, slow bombers you seem to be looking for. Highly vulnerable to fighters, but can carry a stupidly large amount of ordnance.
User avatar
User

berowe

Rank

Galactic Empire

Posts

200

Joined

07 Apr 2012, 06:50

Location

Improcco

Re: Kalis's Balance Corner (and Death Arena)

by berowe » 06 Dec 2014, 18:10

Where does the insane part come in? One or two stockpilers from each side have each taken an hour or two a day and we're all ready to pop out the TWO BIGGEST CAPS in just a couple of weeks.

EVERY current Imperial player could have one at this point in the game. Several of us have been offered and turned down caps because we want to play STAR WARS, not cap wars.

You don't seem to understand how easy it is for players to get these things and how pointless/boring it is to try to kill them when you don't have your own cap. I don't know where you think you're going to find dozens of players to sit in useless fighters and bombers so as to balance one or two enemy caps. Or those who just sit in an ATR waiting for a cap without an escort to come into their system to give them a sense of purpose. Those players will come, they'll run stockpiles or trade for a few weeks, then they'll buy or be awarded their cap and they'll hardly get back into a snub unless a planned event forces them.

Add the fact that the power of caps becomes almost exponentially stronger when you get more than one together-- you may have enough bombers to finally handle one, but throw two in the mix and you're going to need drastically more firepower to handle things like picket ships, ships concentrating fire, ships leaving the fight to recover shields, etc. Add a single fighter to the mix and you're not going to kill such a STARWARSY fleet of 3 caps and ONE fighter with any realistic number of players. And why strive for this number of bombers when each one of you can just pop out your own cap, and screw the fighter, he can't do anything anyway!
"You're going to have to run faster than that, reb..."
- Reaper comms -

Formerly/Currently:
Avenger-4, Dian Set, Reaper-02, Reaper-04, Reaper-05, Yol-01, The Randy Gamorrean, The Snooty Sullustian, Ithorian Sunset, INV Kalix's Bane, et alia.
Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Powered by phpBB ® | phpBB3 Style by KomiDesign
[ Time : 0.049s | 15 Queries | GZIP : Off ]