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Metagame Pivot

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Drakaisyl

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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Drakaisyl » 07 Jul 2014, 10:28

So you take away everything what made the FW:TOW Mod a unique one within the variarity of other mods and think it will get better ? - Well you might think so but I have my doubt. I can only speak for me, but I came here because of a) its Star Wars and b) it was something new.That you realy had to work for some big goals like getting a Capital Ship or whatsoever.

But with these changes you open the doors for people who will give nothing about other players. They will just have one goal: Get the cap and make the life for others a living hell. If you want an example for that,just look at the Discovery Mod. There exactly that happend.The server is,even when tagged as an RP server, a only PvP server. The only form of "RP" which you need is an engagement notice and then guns away.

In my eyes you will get a short increase of players playing here until all become sick and tired of the mod as they realise it isn't something special anymore. If these changes are done and it seems like so,I most likely say "Good bye" to the mod. Most people might now say "You won't be missed" but if that's so,then fine. Who cares - not me.

Just my thoughts to that
I have walked the edge of the Abyss.
I have governed the unwilling.
I have witnessed countless empires break before me.
I have seen the most courageous soldiers fall away in fear.

I have seen your future.
And I have learned

I have won.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Sovereign » 07 Jul 2014, 14:51

My comments in color.

Sizer wrote:[*]We no longer have player leaders
[*] Players can form fleets (capitals) or squadrons (fighters), which are essentially clans
Why not keep the main factions intact and allow clans in addition to them? Seems ridiculous. We've been operating for months with success and put months of work into our faction. I have no problems if random pubbies want to form a clan and get access to big ships but the previous strategic metagame being thrown away for no good reason? What's the point? This is worse than Freeworlds 18.xx. RP is out the window with no central factions driving the story and instead random clans doing whatever they want. The leaders being put to blame is a joke. We haven't failed so much as we haven't been given a chance to succeed. The reason for low activity is the lack of in game actions right now, and has nothing to do with factions or their leadership. If the A.I. director works as advertised I see that helping in game activity. Destroying current factions will tank a lot of activity. My inbox and other methods of private chat are full of phrases like, "R.I.P., WTF are they doing, and Welcome to old Freeworlds." This is almost universally disliked by the people I know and at least a few have said they feel like quitting because of it. People quitting isn't the best thing to boost activity.

[*] Capital ships are no longer constructed, they are instead requisitioned
[*] This process requires players accumulating requisition points on their characters, allowing them to move up to a better ship of their choosing
[*] RPs can be accumulated through actions such as gaining influence for your faction, destroying enemy ships, etc.
[*] RPs may not be shared or traded
So my capital ship needs to be the same character as my trader to get enough points? I can't trade points even between my own characters? Hope I'm reading that wrong. For godsakes at least allow points trades between your own characters. The current construction system has been a huge success in the Empire. It's been the main focus of our activity. How does this boost activity to throw away the primary thing we were logging on for? The construction economy was a pretty cool thing that sent us all over the galaxy for parts and spurred interactions between players, even diplomatic meetings. I like the RP idea but don't throw away the construction system. Permit it to remain alongside the primary factions as a faster way of building ships in an organized fashion. Make it slightly easier to build a ship with materials due to the organization needed to do so. Best of both worlds, RP for everyone or constructed for organized groups.

[*] Starter ships are removed and replaced with their faction’s corresponding main bomber and fighter
TIE Fighter and Z-95 removed from the game? What is a "main fighter?"

[*] New starter loadout with a basic capital ship (corvette) per faction
Nice change.

[*] More diverse choice of starting trader loadouts
Also nice.

[*] Upon death, the capital ship is lost, but the RPs are not
[*] You’re given a basic ship again
[*] You don’t gain back the RPs from your ship
Contradictory statement? Do you lose RPs nor not? Unclear.

[*] Surplus capitals can be bought for a lot of money (destroyer and below)
Meaning no RP needed?


Here's an idea. Instead of an authoritarian approach to the community and game, let's make this an actual community game. FW 2.0 was begun as a community developed game. Now it's become some kind of closed society. I may have special insights and attachment being a "current" (read as: former) leader and former dev myself but this approach is hurting things. Saying, "This is how it's going to be and that's final!" That hurts the community and game. We aren't even approached with this stuff in public, just given a grand sweeping proposal with NO COMMUNITY DISCUSSION and told, "This is it! DEAL WITH IT!"

I know you guys have plans and work hard behind the scenes but you're forgetting the rest of us. We're working on the game too, in a different way. The faction leaders were primarily hired as community reps and guides, which is what we've done. We've been working this entire time building factions, player interaction and community and then we're suddenly told, "Hey, we're throwing you aside, deal with it."

If people don't like current faction leadership I am totally cool with being challenged and losing the spot to someone who can do it better. This isn't some struggle for power, it's a call for equality. We're told you guys are open to ideas while simultaneously being told this is how it's gunna be and no changes what-so-ever.

If you don't want to listen to the wisdom of people outside the dev group, you're lost.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Sizer » 07 Jul 2014, 20:45

First, I'll talk about your small points here.

RPs cannot be shared - RPs are account wide.
Starter ships are removed - No, they're not out of the game, we're just saying that the fighter rebalance is coming and that the new starting ships for say, the NR, will be the X-Wing and the Y-Wing
RPs and Captial Death - RPs spent on the capital are lost. RPs still in your account wallet are intact.
Surplus Capitals - Exceptional amounts of credits will be required for civilians to purchase surplussed warships of destroyer class and below. They are still Perma-Death. Civilians do not generate RPs, only militaries do.

As for the major picks, I'm just gonna quote what I said in the Empire's Forum, it applies everywhere.

Sizer wrote:In the presence of a clan-based subfactional system, an 'official' faction would have no advantages, no special bonuses, no extra treatment - simply the notion that 'we're the REAL Empire'. Now, in the end, I may allow re-centralization. It's not off the table in the dev rooms. But for now, we want to reign it in for a bit. The only difference between your reforming under one of the new subfactions and now is the 'Real Empire' tag. You would not be able to order around the other subfactions. As mentioned elsewhere, this is a reduction in players to the Task Group level. You're still in the war, you're still a big part of the war, you still make decisions on whatever front you end up deciding to deploy against. Take a step back for a second and start looking at this from a big picture view. Lets say your group, the 7th Sector Fleet or somesuch, is deployed along Bilbringi. Another large group, wanting the Empire's influence to expand, because all groups under the Empire have that goal, decides to deploy along Polith. You're both the same size, about 20 people. You both handle your own supply chains. You're separate groups, similar to the Pacific and Atlantic US fleets during WWII. You both answer to the same government and military chain, your supply lines originate from the same nation, but functionally your chains of command within yourselves rarely meet. While this reduces the scope of what one or three people have control over, this increases the focus of any set of players, and lets individuals play a more refined role.

As for construction alongside RPs - there would be no functional point. RPs would be designed to be faster. There would be no mechanical advantage. Under the AI director system, dynamically generated ambient trade missions will appear. Participating in those will net EVERYONE involved RPs, moving ANYONE interested in a capital closer to obtaining one. The trade pilots involved get credits, which makes them happy, and the military pilots involved generate RP. Beyond that, on a technical level, stockpiling is a barely working mess, and the team's man-hours are steadily shrinking. We can only make so much work, and removing this from our plate lets us make a lot of the other more advanced but quicker to implement things on the table (Like the AI Director) possible to do with what we have left.

Personally, I'd LOVE it if we could have a completely player driven top down metagame working. That's my dream game. It pains me to have to axe that part of it. But we simply do not have the community to sustain such a model. Instead, going with a more decentralized PS2 model would better serve retention. I've mentioned in the Leader's skype chat some statistics. I'll mention them here. The mod has 3369 unique downloads. Our server has ~1780 unique accounts, post-wipefest. A random sampling of those accounts shows a total online time of an average 15mins - 1 hour of uptime. Now, while we can't quite exit poll these people, we can track behaviors, and what we've deduced is that people log in, realize that they can't access ships, can't access caps, and that there's no one to interact with. The last off these problems is caused by critical mass issues, which is in and of itself symptom, not a problem. The first few issues are related to how factions are currently set up. By eliminating recruits, we allow players to access the full roster of fighters right away. By providing a progression path for capital unlocks, we allow players to play the way they want to, instead of hiding a good 50% of the combat content behind barriers that frankly will never be crossed by a majority of those that want to. By allowing smaller contained subfactions, we allow a more fluid PUG style of interaction with the metaverse, which will facilitate more casual players sticking around. This last bit is partially an appearances game - the notion of a monolithic faction that you have to commit time to to participate in is daunting to a large number of people - we are not, and cannot be EVE, no matter how much wishful thinking I may have on the subject.

And let's take one last look at those numbers. Out of the 1780 who connected to the server, about 20 of you actually play it, even at the Empire's peak activity. That's a little over 1% of all who have played the mod (And that's conservative, we lost a good number of accounts during the wipe weekend). When we were planning this mod, based upon our community numbers (MDB watchers, facebook likes, youtube views), we were hoping for maybe 10% retention of 1000 unique accounts, which was about a 30% total expected download number from our total unique watcher base. So to bring it all down for you, while what we did appeals to the 1% of you that are here, something (as noted before) killed it for that other 9% (which, let me remind you, is 90% of the desired playerbase). I'm sorry to have to put it this way, but we have to try and get those people back, even if it upsets you guys.

These are the facts of the matter as they stand. I am not blaming anyone in faction commands for a failure, I'm blaming the design of the system. Please take that as it is.


We aren't not listening. I have made every effort to address every issue brought up before now. Occasionally I'll just step on something for one of two reasons - it's semantics, or it's not doable in the engine or with the manpower we have. Now, this time, we are making a pivot as an executive decision. How we do it can be influenced by feedback here, but so far, I've seen no convincing arguments for maintaining the status quo, only confused and unsupported arguments based on anecdotal evidence. The very fact that people have threatened to leave over this demonstrates a callous lack of regard for the state of the mod. You're not even going to see how this goes? As I've demonstrated, your voices are not the only ones out there - there's the thousands of players who haven't spoken because they don't know how, or couldn't be assed because that's what the average gamer is like. I understand that you've all put time into the current system, but let me remind you that this all would have gone out the window when the Campaign started. I thought I'd made it clear that the beta factions were all probationary, subject to any change required to make this work. If I haven't that's my fault.

Now, we can continue to let this flame on, or we can actually discuss the merits and disadvantages of this system without making unfounded claims about what it will and will not do.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by FriendlyFire » 07 Jul 2014, 20:50

I'd also like to add, as an aside, that in order to facilitate reactions, we're now providing an anonymous feedback form here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1HJTlbE ... =send_form

If you'd like to quickly send us feedback without having your name attached to it, use this. We'll take all feedback, anonymous or not, into consideration.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Leaph Chausew » 07 Jul 2014, 21:01

The primary objective is to keep the mod alive and that is what the devs are trying to do. We need to respect that and these guys have poured countless hours into this creation.

Flaming will get us nowhere. Nowhere.

The new system seems pretty sound to me - similar to SWG's setup tbh - and I think it'll work. Tbh, I think I could possibly get us some additional recruits with this setup.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Kalis » 07 Jul 2014, 21:32

Gonna be honest... I'm over the place with this. It's a lot to take in.

What I'm going to try to do is a point by point observation of everything in here, starting with the ultimate goal than the measures you are taking. This will probably end up all over the place but I am pretty confused so here goes:

Part I - Refocus
Goals:


Players are no longer reliant on other players to enjoy the mod
Sounds good but it's always more fun with a group. But with the server basically being deserted right now, I understand why this is being implemented.
Players are no longer restricted in what they can do or have
Never liked the faction restrictions but this will have a negative effect on RP as well. I can't say that some random guy who is flying a TIE/D griefing new guys is Imperial and can't really hold said person responsible for anything. But I do like not being limited to "starter" ships nonetheless. Maybe I want a pirate or Corellians want a X-Wing squadron (because their fighters aren't really good). This also makes spying easier for all sides.
Players are no longer forced to take orders from other players
I was always under the impression that if someone didn't like an order they'd tell me to get lost and I expect that. If someone in command does not expect negative feedback or expects people to blindly follow orders they're not doing it right anyways.
Players can join up with friends
Can already do that? I take you are referring to the clan system which is nice on a small level but I feel should still be under a higher command so factions are coordinated.
Players have multiple means of achieving the same goal
This is about capital ships and I'm kind of for it but will go into detail under he measures part of this.
Players are no longer forced to play in a way that is not enjoyable to them
Once again will talk about under measures.

Measures:

We no longer have player leaders
Someone is always going to have to be in charge, even if its unofficial. The person in charge of coordinating between clans would still technically be a "moff". If a faction doesn't have any coordination then it's basically not a faction anyways. I don't understand why this is being implemented if the change is only really in name only.
Players can join any number of factions they wish, without human intervention (aside from Jedi/Sith)
Spying an issue here people? I don't mind (I actually like and encourage) unrestricting the ship list so people can be/fly whoever/whatever they want without being restricted but there were (and still are) reasons that people were limited to one faction only on the forum.
Players are immediately full members and have access to the complete ship roster
Been over this, see above statement.
Capital ships are no longer constructed, they are instead requisitioned
This process requires players accumulating requisition points on their characters, allowing them to move up to a better ship of their choosing
That actually sounds like more of a grind than stockpiling. It would be more fun though (speaking as someone who farmed $11M worth of fighters to get his Dreadnaught in the demo). I think that players should be able to get their own ships individually, but that factions should still be able to build them (old stockpiling) and assign as well. The faction way would be faster while the solo way would take longer and cost more.
RPs can be accumulated through actions such as gaining influence for your faction, destroying enemy ships, etc.
Sounds good
RPs may not be shared or traded
Sounds good, I know these are account bound.
Starter ships are removed and replaced with their faction’s corresponding main bomber and fighter
Still sounds good. Empire main fighter remaining TIE Fighter or changing to TIE Defender though?
New starter loadout with a basic capital ship (corvette) per faction
Explain please :)
More diverse choice of starting trader loadouts
This mean different freighters, different trader factions, or the ability to modify your trade ship?
All trader factions are completely independent of the main four factions
Sounds fair enough.
Upon death, the capital ship is lost, but the RPs are not
So are the RPs spent on the capital lost or not? I'm assuming they are and you mean the ones you've accumulated can't be lost by dying.
You’re given a basic ship again
Fair enough.
You don’t gain back the RPs from your ship
Answered above question :lol:
Players can form fleets (capitals) or squadrons (fighters), which are essentially clans
Already explained my view on this, sounds good but there needs to be a command structure. If a clan wishes to leave a faction, either by splitting off or defecting that would basically be where the "get lost" part comes into play.
We provide subforums under each faction and let the clan leader control acceptance, but do not enforce multiclanning or anything
Fair enough.
Influence works as before, but is undirected; players individually decide what to do and where to go
I thought was how it worked before? Command never ordered the Imperials to attack Borleias, we just kind of did it.
Trading is purely a money-making process
I like stockpiling but already said that part.
Surplus capitals can be bought for a lot of money (destroyer and below)
Sounds fair enough but I hope that the amount of money needed is unreasonably large so that everyone isn't flying a capital a year from now. That'd be annoying.

Part II - Events & Roles
Goals:

Player interaction is no longer required to create enjoyable situations
Already said something about this.
Players are no longer disturbed/annoyed by NPCs
No more NPC spam. Yay!
Players and NPCs participate in the same metagame
Kind of feels like we wouldn't really be doing much or it wouldn't be worth doing if NPCs are just going to do our job for us.
Players have more things to do
Always good.

Measures:

Creation of an AI director
When players engage in specific behaviors, AI director reacts by spawning appropriate response
Traders moving around in space without escorts >> spawn escorts
Smugglers moving around unimpeded >> spawn police
Enemy fighters raiding systems >> spawn defense squadrons
Enemy capitals raiding systems >> spawn defense fleets
At random points in time, spawn random events and notify players
Trading convoy
Fighter attack
Capital attack

This all sounds good :) It might become annoying if players set up an event and the AI director ruins it by causing a battle somewhere else though. (Like Empire attacks Borleias but AI director decides to start an engagement in Dathomir)
Target random military events towards areas with influence instability
Makes sense.
Players are rewarded with money or RPs for participating
Sounds good.
Significant reduction of background NPC spawns, both in terms of numbers and in terms of area
Sounds great.
Implementation of mining
Implementation of random discoverable wrecks
Implementation of random systems with rewards hidden in them

This all sounds good and appeals to those us who enjoy exploring. But there is a line between exploring and "mowing the lawn" trying to hunt wrecks.
Implementation of bounty hunter system
That sounds like fun. Will the bounty's poster be anonymous or would the bounty know who did it?
Can both leverage player and NPC hunters, but only target players
NPC hunters... No hiding :)

Part III - Beyond

Crafting system?
For what? Ships? Modifications? Certain awesome rare ships (through either their construction or modification of a stock ship) requiring a lot of time to sink into would be cool for those of us who like our light freighters and fighters instead of capitals.
Player bases?
For clans? Ehh. For pirates and civilian organizations, that'd be cool.
Modular ships?
Like being able to change out a Y-Wing for a Longprobe Y-Wing? Or a standard ISD for a Tector?

If I was too vague on something or if you want me to back up something I said in here tell me. :) My only real issue with this seems to be the stockpile and command removal. And the issues I have with those are with certain reservations anyways so I guess I think this is a good change :lol: Need to keep faction command and stockpiling in my opinion though.
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Flight Lieutenant Drakis; Reaper Squadron
Moff Griff; Tapani Sector
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Sizer » 07 Jul 2014, 21:40

Most of your post was answered in my last one, Kalis.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Kalis » 07 Jul 2014, 21:46

I know... I just took all the time to go through that and didn't want it to be wasted :lol:

I don't know why (and I know putting back the old faction system is not off the table) but I still have a problem with the whole clan/fleet thing. Maybe its just because I'm in the command group, hmm.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by FriendlyFire » 08 Jul 2014, 20:01

After taking in and analyzing the large amount of feedback that we have received, we have decided to enact the following modifications to the proposed plan. We would appreciate further input on this modification.

Factions are not disbanded. They are merely rebranded as “Primary Fleets” within their faction. This is so that the AI director’s own NPC fleets make sense in the lore, as they would not be controlled by the players and thus would be part of other fleets of the faction.

There can only be one Primary Fleet. A Primary Fleet gets access to all tools and controls, including the special ability of being able to transfer requisition points to a faction pool, which can then be doled out to other members. This transfer would however have a certain conversion factor, dependent on the Primary Fleet’s composition, size, activity, etc.

Players affiliated with a faction may decide to form their own group, which would be called a squadron if composed strictly of fighters or a fleet if composed of capital ships. Such groups would have a few tiers, culminating in the highly desirable Primary Fleet.

Recruits (would need a better name for them) still exist. They no longer have any ship restriction, but they are not part of a player fleet. Until they choose to enter one, they are part of a special fleet that houses all such players.

Fleets of any kind may enact rules such as disallowing players to be part of multiple factions or multiple fleets, as they desire. We will try to provide tools to allow fleet leaders to determine if a player is part of other fleets or factions.

It is possible for the Primary Fleet to be downrated to a Sector Fleet, but this would require a large and active candidate Sector Fleet that would replace them, as well as heavy roleplaying to enact the transfer and blessings from the Lore Team. This is put in place to avoid a dying/dead group from occupying the top position when a new group is available to take over.

Sector Fleets and the Primary Fleet have a direct communication channel with the Lore Team and one another in order to coordinate the metagame’s evolution.
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Re: Metagame Pivot

by Sovereign » 08 Jul 2014, 20:04

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