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In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by Tururon » 23 Sep 2013, 18:50

Soooo I was going through all stuff related to RP that was already posted, and still got major concern:

There is a lot of stuff regarding Factions and Forum (too much imo), but there is next to nothing about in-game rules. All i was able to find was "engagement notice" thing on the wiki.

So how regulated is in-game stuff going to be? Some rules are required to make in-game RP possible, but at the same time if we make it way too regulated and predefined, it will stop being fun. Has such things been discussed inside dev team already? It would be real shame if this of all things will be what blows mod release.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by DarkForce » 23 Sep 2013, 19:30

Hey! I'm DarkForce and I'm developing the roleplay systems and lore for the mod.

Don't know if you've seen the RP Guide yet, but here's the download link if you haven't: http://www.moddb.com/mods/fwtow/downloa ... play-guide

That's more detailed than what's on the wiki so far, as we haven't finished adding everything to the wiki yet.

Just to put it in brief for you here, though:

In-Game roleplaying is meant to add a layer of detail to go alongside the forum roleplay, which (we hope), is going to drive the ongoing story forward. In-game roleplaying are your everyday activities that roll into the more major events that forum roleplay (and other outlets) will cover.

There will be some give and take to that dynamic, as we expect to see major battles fought on the server, and we do not expect that every piece of forum roleplay is going to constitute a major event. (There is a system in place that will regulate what and how things become major/minor parts of our canon)

So that's how in-game RP affects the overall metagame. As for the rules of our in-game RP, they're straightforward:

-If you're in global chat, stay in character or stay quiet. Spamming global with OOC messages will have repercussions.
-OOC chat is fine in private and group channels, so long as the other person or the group is OK with it.
-Vulgar, racist and/or otherwise inappropriate language/behavior is strictly prohibited both in character and out of character.

Basically, as long as you have a character (as simple or as detailed as you want that character to be), and are not breaking character all the time to the detriment of other people's roleplaying, you'll have no problems on the server.

We strongly encourage all our players to roleplay, but if you absolutely don't want to, all that we ask is that you respect everyone else's right to it by not interfering.

Please let me know if you have more questions, because I'm more than happy (probably creepily, giddily happy) to answer anything and everything about the RP and Lore.
Blame DarkForce, he wasn't clear about it.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by Tururon » 23 Sep 2013, 21:29

...not breaking character all the time to the detriment of other people's roleplaying, you'll have no problems on the server.

We strongly encourage all our players to roleplay, but if you absolutely don't want to, all that we ask is that you respect everyone else's right to it by not interfering.


Well, there is big problem with this. From my (not small) experience on Discovery I can tell that this just won't work. If there is little window for abuse, people will abuse hell out of it. You will be surprised how many people won't miss a chance to mess up someone's elses fun.

It also seems you are developing RP system based on that in-game will just be extension to forums. Problem with this is that forums can generate only miniscule part of in-game activity. Not to mention majority of people would rather just play the game instead of looking for thread on forum. Majority of in-game encounters will be random, and for them I can't find any guidelines. Did I mention abuse already?

And even bigger problem with it is boredome. If person creates a character, he must easily see what he should do with said character, after all majority of oorp comes from people not knowing what the hell to do. Rule and ID system main role is to fight this problem. When person first sees ID, he should know where he should fly to fight, whom he should fight, whom he should help, what he shouldn't do and and what he can't do no matter what.

For now I have 2 questions:
1) Is this going to be RP server like Discovey, or generic RP/PVP server (which stands for "U RP=U MAD")
2) Did you play on actual freelancer RP server?

P.S. RRGH, stupid forum logged me out and made me retype message.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by DarkForce » 23 Sep 2013, 23:33

Tururon wrote:
Well, there is big problem with this. From my (not small) experience on Discovery I can tell that this just won't work. If there is little window for abuse, people will abuse hell out of it. You will be surprised how many people won't miss a chance to mess up someone's elses fun.


I imagine that, like Discovery and other RP communities, new rules and regulations will be drawn up as needed to combat abuses that may crop up. I don't disagree with you at all, it could pose an issue, but since the official game/server/story hasn't started and no one has actually begun roleplaying in our universe, we want to avoid being totalitarian in our approach. As with most things, this will be subject to change.

OOC chatter will be restricted to private and group chat. If an individual or group wants to RP privately or within a group and other players aren't respecting that, we expect it to be reported and the admins and moderators will handle it from there.

It also seems you are developing RP system based on that in-game will just be extension to forums. Problem with this is that forums can generate only miniscule part of in-game activity. Not to mention majority of people would rather just play the game instead of looking for thread on forum.


The player-created forum RP that will actually affect in-game events is going to be strictly monitored and curated by the Lore Staff. Certain stories/events will also be created by specific members of the Lore Staff to deliberately move the plot forward and to be an impetus for in-game events. So, even if no one decides to write their own stories, many events and the context for those events will be provided by the Lore Staff for players.

In short, in-game and forum based RP will inform one-another. It all goes hand in hand, and certain appointees will be there to aid in that process.

Majority of in-game encounters will be random, and for them I can't find any guidelines. Did I mention abuse already?


Random in what way? Yes players will obviously encounter one another, but many players will belong to a faction (Empire, New Republic, Corellia, Hutt, etc.), so on a given day we'd expect to see NR players raiding Imperial shipping and vice versa, Hutt pirates assaulting Corellian trading depots, etc. The lore provides the context necessary for these events to make sense in the grand scheme of things.

So if random event X is that an NR fighter unit encounters an Imperial fighter unit in contested space, they'll fight one another because those two factions are at war. Even if no one on either side utters a word, it's still proper roleplay because those groups should be fighting one another. So for those players uninterested in the reading/writing, it's easy: fight the war.

And even bigger problem with it is boredome. If person creates a character, he must easily see what he should do with said character, after all majority of oorp comes from people not knowing what the hell to do. Rule and ID system main role is to fight this problem. When person first sees ID, he should know where he should fly to fight, whom he should fight, whom he should help, what he shouldn't do and and what he can't do no matter what.


Which is exactly why we have factions and have created lore to support the stories and actions of those groups. The reputation system will clearly mark who is a friend and foe to everyone, whether they're a pirate, independent trader, or member of a major or minor faction. So not knowing what to do should never be an issue, and if it is - the forums, admins, guides, and other resources (including other players) should help fill in the gaps.

For now I have 2 questions:
1) Is this going to be RP server like Discovey, or generic RP/PVP server (which stands for "U RP=U MAD")
2) Did you play on actual freelancer RP server?


To answer your questions:

1. Yes, it is going to be an RP server, somewhat like Discovery, but with rules that work with our own roleplaying system and lore.

2. I role played on many of the previous Freeworlds servers, both in-game and on the forums. If you're expecting Freeworlds: Tides of War to be exactly like other Freelancer RP servers, you may have to change your expectations a bit.
Blame DarkForce, he wasn't clear about it.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by Sizer » 24 Sep 2013, 00:37

We have implemented in game mechanics most of our intended rule set. We decided long ago that if we wanted to make a rule, we had to make it nearly impossible to break.

When you first create a character, you are prompted to select a starting faction in an in-game interface. This character will have limited faction standing and a faction tag, and is known as a 'recruit' level character. All characters will be directly connected to the forum and game server interface. As such, recruits do not have access to faction forums, communications, and web interface supports. A player may have recruits in as many factions as they wish. A player may elevate a recruit character to 'member' level via the web interface. They will then gain access to that faction's support structure, and have full access to in game services, including the full spectrum of factional ships, restricted outposts, etc. Players are restricted to ONE faction membership, but may elevate multiple recruits to the same faction. Reputations are automatically maintained by the server, so a player will always know who they're to shoot and who to help.

Beyond that, RP in our context means you shoot your enemies and help your allies. You are not required to formally RP, but again, in our context, we simply require that conversation remains civil and at an educated level. Our in game text communication system is significantly more advanced, which allows far more channel options. We feel that allows us to safely designate system chat as IC only, as there are dozens of other ways to communicate in OOC without disrupting the immersion.

As for player behavior based RP, I won't enforce anything per se - I expect the military factions to establish ROEs, and I expect Pirates to pirate. I won't force rats to have to tell you to pull over and charge you. if they want to just shoot you, sure. Because that's being a pirate. And the repercussions of a military faction brutally executing civilians without warning will become apparent as the civilian traders that will form the backbone of the economy flock to the other side. We aim for as much organic flow as possible.

Further, we are setting this up as a wargame. There will be a chain of command for Member level players. We intend to allow factions a large amount of free reign to organize their own internal structures, but we will encourage the allowance of 'casual squadrons' that just do what they do, but receive less financial support from command.

To put it succinctly, FW:TOW has probably the best faction system developed for FL to date, as it is almost entirely automated, and it leaves almost no room for confusion.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by Tururon » 24 Sep 2013, 15:06

First, I apologise for how my previous posts were a little bit aggresive.
Now onto (hopefully) more civil discussion.
As for player behavior based RP, I won't enforce anything per se - I expect the military factions to establish ROEs, and I expect Pirates to pirate. I won't force rats to have to tell you to pull over and charge you. if they want to just shoot you, sure. Because that's being a pirate. And the repercussions of a military faction brutally executing civilians without warning will become apparent as the civilian traders that will form the backbone of the economy flock to the other side. We aim for as much organic flow as possible.

With this I would point to EVE online, with how your economy, factions, shiploss, and free-engagement-policy will be handled it is important comparision.
You can compare military factions to big alliances of EVE. Most of economy work those alliance handle themselves, with some parts outsorced to corporations that pay them big money to use less rich systems. Majority of civilian people will supply factions they have character in, and make agreements to not shoot their civies, but shoot every other one. Actually, from what I see FWTOW comes closest to EVE compared to other online game. And EVE is famous for its horrible horrible comunity. If you want to maintain friendly atmosphere, you will have to enforce it really hard, that is what i'm trying to say.


EDIT: Also, it should be noted that Discovery server with its stable 150 online in the past, works very differently from other "small" servers. This mod will easily get stable 150 people online, but making game fun for them is entirely different story. If from those 150 players 130 are going to shoot you on sight, only fun way to play the game is to also blast everyone you see. It's no hard to see where i'm going with regulations and RP: if every person you meet wants to ruin your fun, noone will be doing in-game talky-talky RP. And for me, if game is just team deathmatch NR vs Empire, it's not really different from red vs blue. RP goes far beyond that.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by FriendlyFire » 24 Sep 2013, 17:01

Read up on Sith and Jedi at some point. Also check out the demo's numerous events with very involved fleet engagements.

We don't intend to take a full hands-off approach, but we won't force people either. At the same time, expect people with a short fuse to get nasty surprises as things move forward; you won't have much friends if you shoot people on sight. You can get ejected from your faction if you misbehave. You can't get the big ships without faction support and accreditation.

People who are obviously out to ruin others' fun will be very quickly flagged and will paint themselves in a corner.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by Tururon » 24 Sep 2013, 17:29

FriendlyFire wrote:Read up on Sith and Jedi at some point. Also check out the demo's numerous events with very involved fleet engagements.

We don't intend to take a full hands-off approach, but we won't force people either. At the same time, expect people with a short fuse to get nasty surprises as things move forward; you won't have much friends if you shoot people on sight. You can get ejected from your faction if you misbehave. You can't get the big ships without faction support and accreditation.

People who are obviously out to ruin others' fun will be very quickly flagged and will paint themselves in a corner.


Again, look at eve online. It has faction standings, player security ratings that can't be faked easily, high-low-null security systems systems, imba space police, super harsh death penalties, lots of stuff. And it all only makes griefing all more enjoable for players. All points you made also apply to EVE, but it's still THE most douchy online comunity. Even scaming is encouraged there. I really, REALLY recomend you to speak to some person that manages some null-sec faction there. He will explain it alot better than me why handling thing way you want to is going to make comunity unfriendly. And one does not easily fix comunity. Hence, entire reason i'm bringing it up now.

And about Jedi: THAT's what I want. But if I want to RP in Space-opera, why do I have to be a freaking magic user? I want to RP not as super-powered-sith-lord (which I will still do at some point), but as a normal pilot. Still, roleplayong is going to be very hard IMO.

EDIT: Also, in original trilogy all RP was done by not force users, if you understand what I mean. I personally don't like EU force-user-inflation.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by Sizer » 24 Sep 2013, 17:44

I was a regular participant in Null-Sec warfare. I'm fully aware of how EVE runs. The difference between here and there is that the factional leadership in nullsec encourage these behaviors. We will be encouraging our leadership to punish these behaviors, and if things get out of hand, there is always the mallet of loving correction. Yes, there could be problems, but honestly, I prefer to handle those case by case, and see how things flow before we start putting unilateral regulations on things.

As for non-FU roleplay, trust me, it'll happen. What probably won't happen is an Imperial sitting there for 5 minutes talking at a Republican... and I wouldn't want it to. The war we're setting up isn't so cut and dry, that'll be made clear as we get closer to kicking off the metagame, so there will be room for uncomfortable proximity with enemies while ROE says you cant shoot. And some banter can occur here. But if you're doing a deep penetration raid into a back support system, you're simply not going to banter over open comms at the enemy, at least, I wouldn't. And I probably wouldn't respond to 'Identify, this is Republican space' if I were an Imperial strike force... because I wouldn't.

I expect RP to happen where it's appropriate. Inter-system customs checkpoints, within fleets, but not between fleets (often), at organized pivotal events (of which there will be a decent amount).

A last note I'll make is that our universe is quite large. Our systems are quite large, and getting through a single star system is usually not a quick affair, especially for a strike force that is trying to avoid detection, and so must avoid the established hyperlanes. That means PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEENTY of time for chatter to occur while approaching a target, should the urge arise.
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Re: In-game rules: to RP or not to RP?

by Tururon » 24 Sep 2013, 18:22

Sizer wrote:I was a regular participant in Null-Sec warfare. I'm fully aware of how EVE runs. The difference between here and there is that the factional leadership in nullsec encourage these behaviors. We will be encouraging our leadership to punish these behaviors, and if things get out of hand, there is always the mallet of loving correction. Yes, there could be problems, but honestly, I prefer to handle those case by case, and see how things flow before we start putting unilateral regulations on things.

As for non-FU roleplay, trust me, it'll happen. What probably won't happen is an Imperial sitting there for 5 minutes talking at a Republican... and I wouldn't want it to. The war we're setting up isn't so cut and dry, that'll be made clear as we get closer to kicking off the metagame, so there will be room for uncomfortable proximity with enemies while ROE says you cant shoot. And some banter can occur here. But if you're doing a deep penetration raid into a back support system, you're simply not going to banter over open comms at the enemy, at least, I wouldn't. And I probably wouldn't respond to 'Identify, this is Republican space' if I were an Imperial strike force... because I wouldn't.

I expect RP to happen where it's appropriate. Inter-system customs checkpoints, within fleets, but not between fleets (often), at organized pivotal events (of which there will be a decent amount).

A last note I'll make is that our universe is quite large. Our systems are quite large, and getting through a single star system is usually not a quick affair, especially for a strike force that is trying to avoid detection, and so must avoid the established hyperlanes. That means PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEENTY of time for chatter to occur while approaching a target, should the urge arise.


For god's sake, I don't want ANY RP between NR and IN fleets. That's one example when if other side has no intention to surrender (Geneva Conventions in freelancer lol), shooting is the thing that should happen. RP should happen between parties that don't want to kill each other just for the sake of it. We are not going to see RvB, but rather alot of factions that are neutral to each other I hope? I just think that shooting person that is not your enemy for no reason should be prohibited, simply because dealing with such things afterwards via faction and admins will be very inefectual and time consuming. Many people will cover for their friends with no regards for logic, it's real problem in Discovery, even though factions are just for show there. Stating that "you can not shoot neutrals for no reason", will produce alot less of ilogical stuff. People who have reasons will still shoot, and those who don't will think twice.

Again, changing some comunity trend is ALOT harder than preventing it in the first place. Also, from EVE you should know that group of people doesn't have to be big and powerfull to mess with big boys.

Soooo, are there still open slots in "Lore and RP" dev team?
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